02 Feb 115. What It’s Really Like to Have a Traditional Book Deal, ft. Miriam Schulman, Author of “Artpreneur”

Have you ever thought about pursuing a traditional book deal?

Does the idea excite you, and maybe scare you just a little?

In this episode, Miriam Schulman, author of “Artpreneur,” shares the pros and cons of her experience publishing with one of the Big 5 publishers.

Discover how her work with a book coach helped her through the process and her team made her book even better than she imagined it would be.

For more writing tips and inspiration, follow me on Instagram @candiceldavis.

Mentioned in This Episode

Authors Ignited: Group Coaching Program for Nonfiction Authors

Jump-Start: A free guide to help you jump-start your nonfiction book.

Complete Author Coaching (1:1 Coaching)

Episode Transcript

Candice 

Today’s guest is an artist author, the host of The inspiration Place podcast and an all around delightful human being. She has helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skills, and create more time and freedom to do what they love—largely by selling more of their artwork. Her signature coaching program, The Artist Incubator, teaches artists to go from so-so sales to sold out collections. After witnessing 9/11 This guest abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist. She has been featured in major publications from Forbes to the New York Times and her artwork has been featured on the Amazon series Hunters. And on NBC’s Parenthood, one of my favorite shows her forthcoming book entrepreneur, will be released in January 2023. And it’s available now for pre order. Welcome to the podcast. Miriam Schulman. How are you?

Miriam 

Woohoo! I’m so excited to be here? I was looking forward to this conversation all day.

Candice 

I’m so glad that you’re here one month before your book comes out. How’s it feeling? Is it feeling like, “oh my god, this is getting real.” What’s the feeling here?

Miriam 

The feeling now is good. So I don’t know if you’ve heard me say this, Candace, but I’ve been telling most of the people who’ve been interviewing me, writing a book is like being pregnant with an elephant. Do you know how long elephants are pregnant?

Candice 

Is it like? It’s 14 months? How long?…

Miriam 

Yes, yeah, it’s more than a year. So I’m sure it’s very difficult for those poor elephants. I mean, there’s a baby elephant inside of them. And then they have to give birth to an elephant. And then now they have a baby elephant. That’s how I feel. I have this baby elephant that I’m like walking around with. But I’m in the fun stage. Like I’m actually being able to now enjoy kind of the fruits of everything we did. And just like when we gave birth to our first child. And then we said, “Well, yeah, I can have a second one.” Because if we forgot all about what that was, like. You’re delusional.  That’s right.

Candice 

Well, tell us about Artpreneur and why you wrote it.

Miriam 

Okay, so when the pandemic was settling in, in 2020, I made the goal to write a book. And I really didn’t know what kind of book it was going to be. And I did spend time writing. And that was my goal to write a book that year. And by the end of the year, I decided that was a terrible goal. And my new goal for 2021 was to get a publishing contract. And the reason why I changed the goal, the reason why at that time, I thought it was a terrible goal is because you can always be writing a book. So there was not an end, and there was no end goal. So the getting the contract, there was more. I felt like there were steps, there was an end goal. And I did get a traditional publishing contract, mostly because I didn’t know how hard that was supposed to be, which is a good thing. Like, I had 100% belief. You know how people say how, how much that matters?

Candice 

Yes.

Miriam 

Yeah, I really didn’t have any doubts, because I was just naive. So yeah, so I got the agent, I got the contract. And then they said, come back in six months. And that’s, again, when I’ve had the thought this was a terrible idea. That’s when I contacted you Candice I was like, “Oh, thank god, there’s help.”

Candice 

Okay, so but before we even get to that, this was a fast process for you. You were naive, you didn’t know.

Miriam 

I didn’t know. I didn’t know it was supposed to be different.

Candice 

So I just don’t want people to hear this and be like, “Oh, Miriam, I’m gonna deal in five minutes and so can I,” because for most people, it actually doesn’t happen that way. Why do you think your process went so quickly from idea to publication?

Miriam 

Yeah, you know, there’s a story and I’m going to try not to drag it out by telling the whole story. But there’s a story about the Chinese artist, and the rich man goes to him to paint a rooster. And he says, “give me—like, whatever it was—six bags of gold and sends him away, “come back in a year.” And so the rich man comes back, and he says, “hey, I want I want my rooster now.”  And the artist takes out a piece of parchment and paints a rooster and says, “Here you go,” and the guy’s furious. “Why did you send me away for a whole year? If it only takes you a few minutes?” And he says, “Well, let me show you the back of my studio in studio.” There were hundreds upon hundreds of drawings and paintings of roosters. And I feel like for me, it was the same thing because I’ve been working on my podcast since 2018. And I wrote a book about my own lived experience. I’ve been a professional artist for 20 years. So it’s not like I just became an artist one year and then I decided to write a book, there’s like 20 years that have gone into it, but also because I have a podcast I’ve been refining my message and because I have a coaching program refining what that process is that I’m teaching people. And that was the message I kept hearing from my agent was like you have to really sell in a book form, what it is that you teach your clients. So I listened to that advice. So that hard work had already been done. And for writing the proposal, the proposal is really a sales document for your book. So I’ve written sales pages for my program. And if the book is really what’s in my program, there was just a matter of shaping it into this new format. So it’s kind of like, if you go to make French toast, but you already have bread, you know. So that’s kind of what it was like, Okay, I’ve got the bread in the eggs. And now I just have to turn it into French toast.

Candice 

Yeah. So you said something interesting. You said the book is really what’s in your program. And a lot of aspiring authors I talk to who also have courses and coaching programs are really afraid to put that information in their book, because they’re afraid that people won’t want to work with them. They’ll just get the book and be successful without them. And they’ll never have any clients again. Why was that not a concern for you?

Miriam 

Yeah, well, it’s already in the podcast, too. You know, it’s like, it’s all out there. And the thing is, everything is a different experience.

Candice 

Yes.

Miriam 

So and also, all my clients think they’re unicorns, they don’t understand how it applies to them until I sit there and hold their hands and say, this applies to you. And you can do it. And here’s why. So there’s that too. I mean, coaching is really for people who, who need that- they need to be pushed, they they need that container, they need the accountability. So there’s a lot of tools inside of coaching that you can’t get from reading a book. I mean, why do people join Weight Watchers? Oh, you could read a book to lose weight. You know, like you could read 1000 books, you know how to lose weight. It doesn’t mean you’re going to do it. So it’s the same thing.

Candice 

Yeah, it’s even a little bit more than that. Because one of the things that I noticed, so I was your book coach, but during the the process of me coaching you to write your book, you also coached me on my sales process. And one of the things I noticed that you were brilliant at, that they can’t get from a book, even though you put all your program’s stuff in there is giving feedback. Giving specific feedback on the way people are presenting their sales, you just can’t get that from a book.

Miriam 

No, you can’t. So that reminds me of a very funny story. So I just recorded the audiobook—nd I recorded it over two days, a I had two different engineers—and at the end of the second day, the engineer said, “Would you look at my website?”

Candice 

Oh, my gosh.

Miriam 

So he had listened to the whole book. So and at first, he was like, “Oh, well, if you’re too busy, I’ll mail to you.” I was like, “no, no, no free coaching happens after I walk out of here.”

Candice 

You get it now. Right?

Miriam 

Right, you get it now, or never. And so I walked through it. And it was very interesting, because it’s not the type of website that I would normally be critiquing. He does, sound, you know, somebody has an original composition and they want to set down a track and record it and add instrumentation and things like that that’s what he does. So it was interesting, taking my principles and going through his different pages and saying, “here are all the places that you you need to make it about your customer, not about you.” So but yeah, but it’s the same thing. He listened to the whole book. But still needed my help, yknow?

Candice 

I mean, good sales strategies, are good sales strategies or principles, no matter what you apply them to, I changed- I did two significant things based on what you told me. One was to raise my prices, and one was to change my consultation process. And both of those things flipped a switch in my business. So it was like, “Okay, I’ve gotten the feedback to grace, right?” Because I was coaching you, but you had the grace to give me that feedback. So it was super, super helpful for me.

Miriam 

Well because I went through your sales process. And I was like, “you know, your almost sabotaged the sale”

Candice 

You yelled at me! *laughs*

Miriam 

I did, I was like, I was all ready to hand over the card and then you like . . .

Candice 

Okay, okay we’re changing the subject, Miriam. Okay. Okay. You’re putting too much out there. Tell me about your writing process. And what did you find the most challenging?

Miriam 

Whole thing.

Candice 

No.

Miriam 

Okay, so wait, can I just tell you one of my friends also very quickly got an agent, a contract, started writing the book. She did not have the same experience I did when they Regina did in her book. They said you have to pay an editor. I don’t even tell you how much she has to pay because you’ll raise your prices again. You have to you have to pay an editor. It’s not good enough.

Candice 

Oh wow.

Miriam 

That’s our worst nightmare that they’re going to tell us we’re not good enough, right? And that happened. And I was like, “Thank God I had Candice.”

Candice 

Oh, wow. Oh, God bless her. Well, the good thing is that she does have people out there, she can find somebody and she still has her contract.

Miriam 

Yeah they made her take it out. It came out of her book advance, basically, they said, “you have to hire this person . . .”

Candice 

That’s a bit of a bummer. But the reality is, if she positions her book, well, she’ll make way more money than that.

Miriam 

It’s fine and she got a huge advance. Like, even after they took that out, it was like.

Candice 

Okay so, why did you choose traditional publishing? I know you like the deadlines and all that. But why that instead of indie publishing?

Miriam 

Oh, okay. So this is a completely different book, because of all the collaborations that happened. So the original idea for the book was more stories less prescriptive, and more like taking really what I had in my podcast and putting that into a book. And then once I went through the proposal process, it became clear that it really needed to have the same structure that I teach my clients, and then both worth working with you and my editor at HarperCollins, Linda, I had different influences. I wouldn’t have brought to the table. So I don’t know if you’ve read the new version of it. But like Linda had put in like, how about Megan thee Stallion I was like, “Oh, good idea!” She’s putting all kinds of things in here like these inclusive underwear brands that I wouldn’t have known about. Yeah, so it was like, all these different influences. And one of my goals with this book, is to make it an inclusive book, because I was so sick of business books that don’t mention women, like even the quotes that begin each chapter. It’s like all Zig Ziglar and every other dude, you know, John Maxwell, and all those people. And so I wanted there to be women. I wanted there to be people of color. I wanted there to be people who are gay, I wanted there to be Jewish people. And I wanted people to see themselves inside this book. And if I wrote that only myself, then people would have more trouble seeing themselves inside the book, cuz it’s just my perspective.

Candice 

Yeah.

Miriam 

So by working with you with working with HarperCollins, and even though I didn’t enjoy the editorial process-

Candice 

You didn’t. *laughs*

Miriam 

No, I did not. You know, that I went crying too. So there were some developmental editors that gave me some really harsh feedback. But sometimes I took it and was like, “Okay, I understand where this is coming from, and I will make some changes.” And other times, it was an invitation for me to double down even harder on my own point of view. So teasing apart, which to do what was, you know, part of my own evolution of my own message. My own message has been refined as a result of this process as well.

Candice 

This is what I try to tell people. This is one of the best ways to refine your own philosophies and your own message, because you have to if you’re going to write a great book.

Miriam 

Yeah.

Candice 

You’ve got to lock it down. You mentioned that your original version was very heavy on the storytelling, which I can see because storytelling is one of your strengths. So I could see why it would be that way. So obviously, that was not the hard part of writing this book for you. So what did you find most challenging?

Miriam 

Yeah, no. And it’s still a heavy storytelling book, I may have trimmed a little more of the stories than I wanted to just to sometimes, like when the editorial process is like, path of least resistance is like, fine. I’ll take this out. So I wanted your listeners to know, because I did not know this when I wrote a book, like I thought you write a book. It’s either 250 pages, it’s 260 pages, it’s whatever you make it. So no. When you sign the contract, the contract says how many pages it is. And if if it says 240, and you hand in something that’s 260, and they can’t trim it down, the font size gets smaller.

Candice 

Yep.

Miriam 

And I didn’t want the font size to get too small, because I really don’t like books where the font size is too small.

Candice 

It’s painful.

Miriam 

Especially women like us in our 50s. No thank you.

Candice 

Yes, hello. It’s painful. And see if you’re self publishing or publishing independently do what you want, right? Because you can make the book as long or as short—which has its upsides and downsides because sometimes they end up way too long—and sometimes they end up like a pamphlet because they don’t have someone there kind of saying this is not working and guiding them. Whereas you had someone saying that but once you committed to that page number, that’s what it needed to be.

Miriam 

Yeah. Mmhmm.

Candice 

What was the hard part?

Miriam 

Yeah, the hard part was the developmental edits. I mean, I was in tears, rewriting the book. I really, really was it took me a few days. And, you know, when I first got the contract, I said, “Oh, this is a big mistake,” it was like, then kind of, I was using it as evidence against myself that in every line edit, I would read in my mind, in a very mean sarcastic voice. You know what it’s like. And then I realized I got to stop doing this. So that I would like, neutralize what the feedback is I was getting, but like I have, you know, I have a very dramatic way of taking, taking feedback.

Candice 

You do have a little background in dramas.

Miriam 

Yes.

Candice 

*laughs* And it’s understandable, right? Because you’ve invested so much at this point. It’s really personal. Like, if it’s a baby elephant, it’s still your baby.

Miriam 

That’s right.

Candice 

So it’s super personal. So just yesterday, actually, or a day before yesterday, I thought about you because I was trying to buy a piece of art. And I could not buy this art from this person. So it’s a woman that I know from many years ago, but I follow her on Facebook, we’re Facebook friends. She makes these wonderful clay masks and mugs. And, I mean, they’re pieces of art, you would put them on display in your home. And she would post pictures, she posted a whole row of pictures, and I kept looking for a link, looking for a link. I just wanted to buy. I didn’t want to have a conversation. I just wanted to buy. Nothing. So I left a comment. I said,” How can I buy such and such,” her response was DM me. I DM’d her. She said I sell out really fast, often. But there’s some pieces on my site. I was like, great. I went to the site to buy. And the site led me to a form to fill out with my contact information. So she can contact me later. And I can make the purchase. And I still have not given her any money. Miriam.

Miriam 

I wish your listeners could see me shaking my head. But this is I mean, it sounds like oh my gosh, this is so weird. But I see this all the time. I see this all the time. Like one of my clients was putting her art on leggings. And oh my gosh, this is so cute. I really want it. So she sent me a very similar like, sent me a message. Let me email you the different patterns. And then you tell me and then I’ll invoice you. And I’ll tell him- like, no, no, no. Just make it easy for people to make an impulse purchase. Why are you making it so hard for people to check out? But I hear that’s just true in other industries, too. Not just artists, like people make it so difficult for someone to spend money with them.

Candice 

Well, do you think artists ever really learn I mean, if someone’s coming up developing, like maybe a coaching business, they may go through a program that teaches them to be a coach, and also teaches them how to have a coaching business. Do artists often have an opportunity to learn the business side?

Miriam 

Well, not in art school, and there are a lot of artists who don’t go to art school, like myself, I didn’t go to art school. But I do also see this in the coaching side, because a lot of these coaches of coaches will teach you that you need to do a sales call, and not to put the prices on the website. And what I was discussing with my suite audio engineer was people, especially the ways buying habits have changed during the pandemic. And this research actually is in the book. And this is the parts you didn’t read because I put it in after I handed in the manuscript Candice, so it’s in there. So people’s buying habits have changed as a result of the pandemic, we are much more used to Amazon, we’re used to the easy click to purchase and people value transparency. So even people who have high end coaching packages, I really think they do a disservice by hiding what the price is because people might be imagining it’s much higher than what you have down there.

Candice 

Yeah.

Miriam 

So you may inadvertently, people may not contact you, because just what you said before you don’t want to contact always to find out the price. Why? Because you don’t want to be embarrassed. People don’t want to be embarrassed if that wasn’t the price that they had in mind.

Candice 

Correct. No one wants to have to say I can’t afford it.

Miriam 

Yeah and which by the way, we should never say. We should always say, “we choose not to buy it.”

Candice 

I always just say, “that’s not in my budget right now.” But no one wants to be in that position. I’d rather just be able to click and buy and I’m going to get that mug one way or another.

Miriam 

Let us buy your mugs.

Candice 

Just let me buy your mugs.

Miriam 

Right? And don’t make me contact you to find out what the shipping is, it should it should be there.

Candice 

It should all be there. It would make life so much easier. So do you teach people in your book how to figure out all this stuff if they’re artists?

Miriam 

Yeah, that is definitely In the book. That’s one of the steps of Think Like an Abundant Artist is, don’t make it so damn complicated for people to to buy from you. Make it easy.

Candice 

Yeah, you have a lot of practical stuff in the book. But you also deal a lot with what is often considered not the practical stuff, which is the mindset side of it. Why do you focus on that so much?

Miriam 

Yeah, so first of all, so much of shopping is psychology. And the psychology is on both sides, there’s your own psychology and there is the psychology of your buyer. So when I go through how to price your good your service, your art, whatever it is, I go through 14 Abundant Artist Lessons. And that is really unpacking what the psychology is that’s going on in the mind of your buyer. So an example of this, and this came up recently, one of my friends from college, she said, “Oh, I want to commission, a portrait of my son and I want to buy my daughter a landscape.” And I said, “Sure, it’s whatever it was 750 each.” And it wasn’t that she thought the price was too high for what I was offering. It’s that she was making the decision is my daughter worth spending this amount of money on? And what a lot of people are, what they when they go through a purchasing decision, if they’re buying something for themselves. If they’re investing in, let’s say, a book coaching package with you, Candice, they’re not thinking, is Candice worth it? They are wondering if it’s Miriam Schulman, am I the writer worth investing in? That’s usually what’s going through their mind. And when we’ve made it all about us, we missed the whole point.

Candice 

Yeah. You talk a lot about belief in your book as part of that mindset and the things people need to believe in in order to really get their sales out there. So I started in literary fiction. So as you can imagine, it’s all about the work not about the money, right? The people who are telling me this, my mentors are living in $2 million houses in Manhattan Beach, but it’s okay. It’s all about the work and not about the money, right? So, I mean, I literally had mentors tell me get out of books, there’s no money in books. This was like 20 years ago. There’s no money in books. I mean, they were very much starving artists mentality, even when they weren’t starving. So do you still see, do you see that going away at all in the art community?

Miriam 

No. Oh, no. And I hope he’s not listening to this podcast, because I just invited Jerry Saltz to come on my podcast. And one of the chapters in his book says, “You need to starve.” I swear to God, like, I’ll go get it. So something like that, like you need to be hungry, or you need to be poor. I forget what the exact words are. And so in the trolls underneath, some of my ads are pretty similar to like. “Well, we’re not creating real art for the money.” And I’m like, “Well, no, you’re not creating your art for the money, but you’re selling it for the money.” So don’t you want to make money when you’re selling it? You know, it’s like, if you’re selling it, then you want money, for what you’re selling! Well we’re in an economy where we need money. Like, hey, you can go paint for fun that’s on you, pal. Go do it. And I’m not saying you should create art that will command the highest prices, although there’s an argument for that as well. I mean, Michelangelo was pimped out to the Pope. He didn’t even want to paint the Sistine Chapel, he said to the Pope, “I’m not a painter, I’m a sculptor.” And the Pope says, “Really?” *laughs*

Candice 

*laughs* We’re making the money sign with our hands.

Miriam 

Yes exactly. We’re both doing it at the same time.

Candice 

Yeah, I find that at this point in life, I find it silly. I mean, if you want to be hungry, that’s fine. That’s your business. But the idea that you must be hungry, and you must sacrifice your material comfort in order to produce something of value is kind of silly to me at this point, honestly.

Miriam 

And there’s so much evidence against that, too. There’s so much against that. Like, like you said, like your mentors were in $2 million homes. And the Echelon on the art world makes a lot of money. But my book is really for the people who I’m saying, you don’t have to be in a museum. You don’t have to be in the Goshen gallery. You can make a thriving living even without all of that.

Candice 

So one of my favorite parts of your book, do you know what it is? Do you know what I’m gonna say? No, and I can’t wait for you to tell me. It’s embrace your inner weirdo.

Miriam 

Oh my gosh, yes.

Candice 

So just tell us a little bit about that. They’re gonna have to read the book if they want to get the full effect of embrace your inner weirdo but and why it was important to you because I know it was important to you to include it in the book.

Miriam 

Yes, very important. And it’s a lot of people’s favorite part of the book, Candice, so I should have known that. So the original meaning of the word weird is fate or destiny. In other words, it’s magical. And so the origin for us writing nerds. So the origin comes from Macbeth, the Weird Sisters who predicted Macbeth’s fate. And so that comes from whatever 16th century Scotland or . . .

Candice 

Sounds about right

Miriam 

Whatever year that was. Don’t quiz me. I’m sure I got it right in the book if I put the year in there, but it came out of Shakespearean English from Scotland. Okay. That much we know. And what happened is that as the supernatural became vilified over time, the word changed meaning. So it wasn’t always vilified. And that’s why when we say weird, we’re really referring to like a, witch is weird. It’s weird, you know, has a negative connotation, but it hasn’t always been that way. So I say that when you embrace what’s weird, you’re embracing your fate, your destiny, you’re embracing what’s magical about yourself. And that’s what you want to do.

Candice 

Yeah. And it makes you stand out in the marketplace as well. You can’t be like everybody else, if you actually want to sell whatever it is you’re selling whether it’s a book or a painting or a mug. This woman’s mugs, I’ve not seen anyone else’s masks, or mugs, or brooches, or boxes like hers, which is why I desperately want to buy mine while I can. So she’s got the embrace your inner weirdo part down, she’s going to need your book to get the systems in place to actually move the art and get the money. Oh my gosh. So what are you looking forward to? As you go off and launch this book in just less than a month now. Or just a little more than a month. What are you most looking forward to your book doing out there in the world?

Miriam 

I love talking to people about it, because that’s the best way to really spread the message. And at the end of the day, that’s really what it’s about. I mean, the words on the page are beautiful. And I do of course, I hope you get the book or the audiobook or whatever format you choose. But there are other ways for people to get my message and being on a podcast like yours, Candice, I’m going to reach those people who maybe they don’t feel the books for them, but they will get something out of our conversation. So that’s the part that I’m really enjoying right now. The very cute baby elephant.

Candice 

The very cute baby elephant.

Miriam 

Little Dumbo.

Candice 

Little Dumbo, we’re gonna give them a better name, though, because I don’t like the connotations. *laughs*

Miriam 

Oh okay. *laughs*

Candice 

But there’s so much in there that, I mean, it’s really what’s one of the other than spending time with you what I learned that was applicable to my own business as a writer and as a business owner. Really, those strategies apply across the board. If you’re a visual artist, you need it, right, just period. You need it. But it also applies to anyone who’s selling things for living.

Miriam 

No, absolutely. Because all the principles come from the traditional business world. I just made it accessible to artists.

Candice 

Yeah. Yeah. Which is a big deal. I know you have a free resource out there in the world for people, what is it tell us about and where it is?

Miriam 

Oh can I give them a free chapter?

Candice 

You can give them a free chapter there. They’re gonna want the book after they read the chapter.

Miriam 

Okay so the free chapter schulmanart.com/believe. Because the first chapter is called Choose to Believe. And Candice, I don’t know if you knew this, but you know, I made every chapter title is like a different mantra or affirmation.

Candice 

Yeah, right. Yeah, I remember.

Miriam 

Yes. Yeah. So choose to believe, just like I believed that I was gonna get my book out into the world, right? 100%. Your belief really is important.

Candice 

Yeah, it is. In anything you’re trying to accomplish. And where else can people find you out here in the world on the interwebs?

Miriam 

Yes. So if you like what we talked about today, come find me on the Inspiration Place, Candice will be a guest as well. That episode might already be out by the time this one airs, because I mean, your interviews coming out December 2022. So if this is being published after, then you can link to that- you’ll link to that in the show notes.

Candice 

I’ll link to everything in the show notes.

Miriam 

Okay.

Candice 

Or someone else will do it for us.

Miriam 

Different conversation.

Candice 

Different conversation. Miriam, thank you so much. It’s such a pleasure to have you, such a pleasure to see you, but even more of a pleasure to see what your book is going to do when it launches in January.

Miriam 

Well, thanks so much for having me. This is so much fun.

Candice 

My pleasure.

Enjoyed This Episode?