Candice
Welcome to “Nothing but the Words.” I'm your book coach, Candice L. Davis. I hope your week and your writing are both going really, really well.
Today, I'm excited to have an interview for you. I'm talking with my new friend, Kimberly Wyman, who is a children's book, Illustrator and author. Let me tell you a little bit about Kimberly.
She's a bestselling author and illustrator of children's books that nurture givers, growers and gamblers, which I love. Her recent release, Grow Love, was Amazon's #1 new release and number one best seller. She has been featured on local TV networks and has been a prominent speaker at community leadership events.
Kimberly helps families to connect, reset, and explore with open hearts, eyes, minds, and hands to love, see, respect, and act through her children's books.
Oh, that's good stuff. All right, Kimberly, welcome.
Kimberly Wyman
Thank you. Hi, thank you as you're reading that it’s like, that's a mouthful.
Candice
It's a mouthful, but it's good stuff. As a mom and a grandma, I’m like, “Oh, those are the kinds of books I would want my kids to have their hands on. So tell me how you came to children's books.”
Kimberly Wyman
So I wrote my first book 15 years ago, and it was actually not intended to be a book. It was a letter to my soon-to-be child, who I knew nothing about. Because basically, I just knew that I wanted to be a mom. I was single. And so I penned a letter to my future child, not knowing how or when the child would come into my life. And then I ended up adopting my son. And that letter was turned into a children's book. So that is my very first experience with writing children's books.
Candice
Okay, so you say that, like it was a very simple task to go from letter to children's book. So how did you end up turning that letter, which sounds like a wonderful idea into a children's book?
Kimberly Wyman
Well, when I had written the letter, it was just very personally transformational for me. And so that was really the letter that told me to move forward with becoming a mom and starting the adoption process. And so as I shared that letter, first with close friends, and I got the response of “That's amazing! Other people need to hear that letter.”
Then just kind of talking to people, I was in marketing, I had an international brand strategy business that I had started, gosh, over 20, 25 years ago now. And so I had known people in the writing industry, and was talking with them about it. And they're like, “It needs to be a book. It needs to be a book.”
Of course, the letter was written as future [tense] because I did not know about the child. From a book standpoint, we kind of had to put it past [tense] so it made sense and could flow reading a book versus the anticipation of the unknown. There were obviously some edits and modifications, but it was based off that.
Then, well, anyone can write a book. So I independently published it. And so that part, while not easy, was maybe a little bit more simple, since I didn't have to go the traditional–or I chose not to go the traditional route with submission letters and getting people to [say yes], all of that type of stuff.
Candice
I mean, pros and cons to each path, right? Absolutely. Pros and cons to each path. But you also illustrate your books, correct?
Kimberly Wyman
Yes. So, again, my background is in design. I had started my first business when I was 20, international brand strategy, and design. I did all the messaging and artwork for corporations. And so honestly, doing children's books, whar I'm doing now isn't too much different. I'm basically creating messages and images and illustrations for children versus corporations, which just speaks to my heart more, more personally, anyhow.
Candice
Oh, I would never have thought of it that way. Like, I would never know that. That was just so cool. The way you just described it. I would never have thought of it that way. That's interesting.
Kimberly Wyman
It was very seamless for me. So I had adopted my son. I lived in Guatemala for a year as his foster mom; came home, started the second adoption process. My daughter was born in Ethiopia. And when she came here, I had sold my business then, and honestly, it felt like such a natural transition. I was truly writing messaging, key phrases, like all the things and all the design work and imagery and the branding that goes into companies and corporations. And it was just seamless. It was just like, “Okay, here's a new target audience. They're not, 45-year-old Japanese males. They’re 3-year-old little ones. {laughing}
Candice
[laughing] But they’re people there. So you're making it sound really easy. I don't want people to get too excited and think that this is just an easy journey. You just wake up one day and write a children's book. Of course, everyone does not have your design background. And I always recommend that if you don't have a design background, an art background of some kind, that you hire an illustrator.
You kind of didn't have to deal with that process. But in your experience, what do you see with illustrations in children's books that maybe we could do better? Like some of the things that are better best practices? Or maybe that we could look for as success strategies for people who are trying to find an illustrator?
Kimberly Wyman
You do have such an excellent and valid point, when it comes to something as simple as page layout, that is my everyday language. I understand what that means. I understand what gutters are. I understand what floods are. And so you're right, I probably did move past that a little bit on the easy side. Because that is my and was my industry. That's my profession. That's what I've studied. And so much of that goes into the illustrations. I really point that out because when you're saying, “What are you looking for? design styles vary so greatly.
So one, it has to resonate with you, [and] it has to resonate with the words of the book. But it could be anything from watercolor to graphic design to sketch. So that part of it, I do feel is really personal. I don't think I can give much guidance on that other than [choose] what speaks to your heart. And if it matches up with the words and messaging of the story, I think that's also very important.
If you're using very colorful and bold language, having something like a soft sketch and watercolor, that juxtaposition just might not serve you well. It may be confusing to your readers and giving mixed messages. So that part, I think it has to speak to your heart.
As far as the technical aspect, I think that's what you need to be mindful of when you're working with an illustrator. Something as simple as–and I know that you're like, no kidding–but every page or most pages will have an illustration and words. And the two have to work together. So if you have this phenomenal illustrator that you're working with, and you know that's who you want to hire to do your book, that's brilliant. The technical aspect of knowing that the words on the page have to work with the illustrations, and to be able to clearly articulate that and make sure that both you and the illustrator are on the same page about that is really important.
Sometimes I open up books, and it's like this gorgeous illustration, and then literally in Times New Roman 12, at the bottom, there's the words. And it's like–
Candice
It doesn't really go together.
Kimberly Wyman
Oh, it feels like it's a missed opportunity.
Candice
I've seen that as well. And I don't have your technical background, so I will see it and not necessarily know why it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. Right. So yes, you have enough technical background that you can see it and tell somebody, but I love your suggestion that it needs to speak to your heart if you're choosing the art for your book, this children's book that you've poured so much into. People who haven't done it, think because it's short that it didn't require much effort. That's not necessarily the case.
Kimberly Wyman
Oh, my gosh! It might be argued it required more. It's hard. You know what, I think I'm an over writer. And I don't know how many people that you work with, but I think that there's a lot of over writers.
Candice
Yes.
Kimberly Wyman
Especially when you’re sitting down, and you're writing, and it can be flowery and beautiful and imaginative and all the things and then all of a sudden, it's like, “Wow! I lost myself in that.” A reader is gonna get lost in that.
And so to peel that back, a rough rule of thumb–you know, there's definitely exceptions for absolutely everything, but just very rough, rough, rough, you can say a picture book is about 1000 words. 600 to 1000 words, maybe.
So if you've got a really strong message that you're wanting to get across, especially if you've got character development involved, world building involved, that's tricky to do in that short period of time.
So what do you have to rely on when you've got limited words? Illustrations.
Candice
That's interesting. One thing I run into, and give me your opinion on this because I don't do illustrations or anything like that, but when I'm editing a children's book, there are often times when I run into places where I feel like the author is saying what the picture should be showing. What are your thoughts on that?
Kimberly Wyman
So I think, take advantage of what a picture book is, which is pictures in a book. To take advantage of that, let the pictures speak. Let them speak for themselves. Now, not always can you, but when you can. Or some things as simple as “she held up a sign that said stop,” or she was alarmed. You don't necessarily have to say that. She could literally [be shown] with panic or alarm in her face, or be holding that stop sign. Then that gives discussion opportunity, which is another thing that I think is so valuable with picture books, the discussions that can come from it.
So many times, you're not just reading a book, and it's, cover to cover, it's done. You're interacting with the little one that's on your lap or in classrooms. Picture books are brilliant for classrooms and teaching writing styles, right? I mean, I know, all the way through eighth grade teachers who use them to talk about literary styles and different things like that, who reference picture books for that.
You're not just reading the words. You're discussing it. You're talking about it, you know. What expression? How does that make you feel? Real world connections and life connections for the reader and the person that you're—maybe a child that you're reading with? So don't let go of all those opportunities. Those are really great.
Candice
I could not agree more. I could not agree more. And that's part of the process of slowing down, right? Because you've gotten out all the information. And maybe you needed to write those words. So you know, that's part of the story. But now, you’ve got to cut back. Yeah, you’ve got to cut back.
So I'm just gonna put it out there—because she knows I talk about this all the time, she's talked about on the podcast—y sister is also a children's book author. And so we talked about a little bit of an older age group, but we talked about, but this is still picture books. We talk about how in her first book, she just wanted to have all the words in there, just all the words.
And as she has written book after book, she has pared down. Each one has fewer and fewer words, but I think they're even more impactful than the first one.
Kimberly Wyman
I mean, if you're selecting the right words, that's the goal, right? For them to be impactful. Then if the less you have, the more power you're giving them. So selecting those words, selecting those phrases, you know, letting the pictures compliment the words so that the words can be fewer, so that when you're reading—this has nothing to do with books—Sometimes I talk to my kids a lot.
Not sometimes, often. Often I talk to my kids a lot. And you know, whether it's “How was your day at school? Pick up this. Do this. How's this? Hey, can you come here and do this?” Sometimes they stop listening.
Yeah, they truly stop listening. Right? And so now I don't even say–I go to removing my voice. What has more power? “Do this. Hon, did you pick up your clothes? Did you get the lunch pack? Let me take a look this. This needs edits, blah, blah, blah.” Or– {silence}
Candice
Hmmmm.
Kimberly Wyman
Just that silence right now wasn't overly comfortable. I feel like that's a real world demonstration of less is more. Because I'm an initial over writer—so I'm writing and I'm getting it all out. The true meaning is lost.
Maybe I've got some great analogies. Like I said, I've got flowery words, maybe a sentence here and there is evoking a feeling. But it's lost. It's lost in this.
And so that's where less is more, so give that “less” more power. And take a chance to step back and breathe. I feel like as soon as I stop talking, everyone in my house starts paying attention, including my husband.
Candice
It works. It works for adults, too.
Kimberly Wyman
Yes, absolutely. That's a good strategy for all ages.
Candice
That's a great strategy for all ages and for writing, not just children's books, but honestly any book because you can overwrite. I don't write children's books. I write adult books, and I overwrite too, but I know I'm going back and cutting so it's fine to get it out in the draft.
So you've got this on lock. You've done this several times. Now you're doing more books. What kind of obstacles have you faced anywhere along the way, whether in the writing, the publishing, the marketing, what have been the biggest challenges for you?
Kimberly Wyman
Well, the number one is time. And I don't think that I'm alone in saying that. I'm sure every single person listening or watching can say, “I don't have time either.” But it's still a real obstacle that we have to get around.
For “Grow Love,” my last book that was published, I truly did it at three in the morning. I mean, that was honestly, my work time was truly 3am to 5am.
People ask me, “What's your favorite part about the book?” That I got it done. That is truly my favorite. I mean, honestly, that it's done. I can go back and look at pages, and I'm like, “I don't love that. Yeah, this is really great. This would have been stronger.”
I think the important takeaway from that is you’ve still got to do it. You’ve got to move forward because I could be sitting on it, not have published it, and years later, still be wanting to make changes.
It's like painting your wall. In a couple years, do you still love the color? Maybe not? What about the artwork? You might want to change that up a little bit. I mean, that's just the nature, right? The longer we wait, hold on something and sit on something, the more changes that are just going to come.
Candice
It’s limitless. You could keep doing it forever.
Kimberly Wyman
Absolutely. So time, I don't know if I recommend doing it at three in the morning. That actually just worked for me. I was not setting an alarm clock. I think it was just on my mind and on my heart. And I was naturally waking up. And you know, that time worked for me. I was really busy, as is everybody else. I don't think anyone's just sitting around with idle time. Yeah, not many people,
Candice
You could have just laid in bed and ruminated about it right? I mean, a lot of us wake up at three in the morning. And we just lie there. And we just kind of think, “Oh, I still have that book to write. I still have all these things to do. But you actually got up and did it.”
Kimberly Wyman
I think you just have to ask yourself, “How much do you want it? How badly do you want it?” Right? I mean, at any point, I'm 45. And I could say at 46, I could either have another book published, or I could not have another book published. But I'll be 46 no matter what.
Time is still ticking on, still moving along. I'm still going to be at that next phase of life. So what do I want to have accomplished or not accomplished? And I think once you have that personal conversation with yourself and you know, whether it's about writing a book or truly about anything, I think that becomes your motivation to say, “Well, then, I've got to do something. I've got to move that forward.”
Candice
I agree. And you are moving forward. I mean, you're going on, this is gonna be your fourth book coming up? Oh It's your third. So “Grow Love” was your second? You ran a really interesting promotion book drive with that in December. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and what inspired it?
Kimberly Wyman
It came about just innocent enough, where I was talking with someone from a foster care agency. And they were talking about the need for books and children having books, and with children in foster care, which I am very involved with. [Those] children have limited belongings that move with them and are actually theirs. So, you know, just have some conversations about that. And that was that. And then later on, I was at just a book event that I was doing, and someone was looking at my books, and they're like, Ah, I love this. I just, you know, I just don't have anyone to buy the book for either ttheir kids are too old, you know, and not yet a grandma on this personal story that I was talking to other the person I was talking with. And, and so she's like, “Oh, I just wish that I could, you know, donate the book.” And so I was like, “Ah, interesting.” Well, what happens if I ran a campaign where people could purchase the book if they wanted to, and I worked with the foster care agency, I ended up working with three foster care agencies. So it was really successful. It was awesome. And you could sponsor a book, for the child who would have a nameplate inside the book saying, you know, gifted with love by whatever you wanted to put. And then I went and did book readings and book signings at holiday parties for children in foster care. And they each got their own personalized copy of the book, including siblings. There was this one set of twins, I want to say they were about six years old, and they were just blown away that they each got their own book. “We each get one?” And I was like, “you do!” and they were just like, jumping and they were excited. And so it was just a phenomenal. That just accidentally happened. But it was definitely not me. It was the whole community that yeah, you know, came together and did that. And it was wonderful.
Candice
It was so great. I loved it when you did it. I don't I did donate a book because yes, one I believe kids. All kids deserve to have their own books, right? Libraries are great, but they can't always get to a library and there's nothing so special as the book that you can call your own. Yes. And I love that you had the name plates in there because to me it gave kids a sense that there's somebody out there who cares enough about you to give you this book.
Kimberly Wyman
That was so I got goosebumps. I literally just got goosebumps when you said that. That was my number one. That was what was most important to me. So some people were like, oh, anonymous, or you know, they want to credit and I was like, please, please, please, I want the children to know. This isn't me as an author. You know, giving blogs, this is a whole community. Like, we have hundreds of people. A whole community cheering these kids on. That's way more important than the book.
Candice
Yeah, it made me so happy I put my granddaughter's name as the person donating it. She's three, what does she know? Right? But I put her name in there. Because somewhere out there, there's a kid who thinks, who knows that another kid gave them this book and cared enough to do that. That is like, so exciting to me. So it was exciting to see you do it. And to see that it was successful. I hear authors who have similar ideas, maybe, but they're afraid to take the step to go ahead and do it.
Kimberly Wyman
It's hard because I was in a vulnerable position, right? Because I'm thinking, well, you're purchasing the books, I'm benefiting, as well, because you're buying my book that we're then gifting to a child. And I had to remove myself, trust me, if I could just write and illustrate and produce books and give them all away and somehow still feed my family. And, you know, pay my rent? I would do it. But who can? I mean, who can do that? I don't think you work for free. I mean, it would be phenomenal. Right? I would love nothing more. It's just not my reality. Yeah. And I think for most people, it's that right? We do this because we do have to support ourselves. And so once I was able to kind of remove that, but this isn't about me, it is about the children, and then seeing the kids faces. Yeah, talking with the foster care agencies and the executive directors and the board members and how happy they were and how happy the kids were. I mean, it all, it all came together. And because of it, I can work on my next book. And you know, we can do it again. Hopefully, it was a great success. I haven't really thought about December of 2023. Yeah, but I guess it'll be here. It comes fast, it comes really fast.
Candice
And for a person who donated, right, because you had different levels where you could donate, you didn't have to you could spend a lot of money if you wanted to, right, like if you just have money, but you didn't have to spend a lot of money and you could still really feel good about what you were doing. So I love that. You organized it very, very well. And you made it very easy for people to participate. So I thought it was really, really great. And yes, please start thinking about December now.
Kimberly Wyman
It is crazy. Well, and then it wasn't just the book, I did put together a book bundle. So I had made an activity kit as well, and pencils and bookmarks and stickers. So it was a kit that they got, which the kids loved. I mean, it was activities tied into the blog, crossword puzzles, drawing pages, coloring pages, sketches, and I gift tags, things like that. And so that, yeah, it was a gift.
Candice
I mean, so to me, a book is a gift, I mean, oh, of course gonna be a gift. And I love that because it was going to kids who don't have their own stuff that you made it something that felt fuller to them, right? And so that they can interact with in different ways. I think that's fantastic. So what's coming up next for you? I know you have another book in the pipeline.
Kimberly Wyman
I do. And I'm really excited. So first I want to say “Grow Love” has its fifth year anniversary coming up February 1, it was launched for Valentine's Day. It's not necessarily a Valentine's Day block. But yeah, love, you know, and it's all about finding love and giving love and sharing love. So Valentine's Day makes good sense. So I am going to be doing some type of thing as far as what's immediately next five year celebration for the book.
Candice
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Yes. However, my next book, which is planning to launch in October, Friday, the 13th Which I'm so excited about because it's a mystery. So it's also a children's book. It's a picture book, but it's a cozy mystery for children.
Candice
Oh, wow. I love that.
Kimberly Wyman
I love that. And I've jumped genres. And I'm just so excited about it. And it's also great to be excited about your work. Yeah, so I love writing positive messaging. I love inspiring kids, you know, “give grow giggle.” I like to say, you know and I love when kids laugh and you know they turn into givers themselves and you know, want to go out and make a difference in the world. I think that's so great. And so there's definitely messages in this book. They're subtle. Yeah, they don't slap you in the face. It really is about entertainment. It really is about world building. And it's a mystery that you have to solve, the readers will be solving it along with the main character.
Candice
Oh, that is so much fun. I would have loved that as a kid and as a parent with my kids, like, I think that was so so so much fun. And that's the beauty of independent publishing, you can jump genres anytime you want.
Kimberly Wyman
Yes, absolutely. And I think that, you know, maybe that's even important to do if it keeps you excited and motivated. So again, the question is, but what made you get out of bed at 3am? To work on it? Instead of just laying there? Well, if you're excited about something, right, and maybe you become stagnant in something that you've written, or, you know, raising global citizens is really important to me. I've spent a lot of years talking about that, developing curriculum for that, I've got a multicultural family. It's just really important to me. And at the same time, I was, I don't want to say feeling stuck. It was just starting to . . . I felt like I was teaching too much is what actually felt like I get that. And it was weighing me down a little bit. Yeah, it's like, well, I'm not a teacher, I don't want to be a teacher, I don't want to continue, like trying to, like drive these messages home and convince like, I definitely don't want to convince anyone of anything like that's, that doesn't align with me. And so, but so much of my identity has been tied up in that. And so with the idea of jumping genres, and going to a cozy mystery, it's like, but am I letting someone down? And then the question becomes, well, who am I letting down? Am I letting myself down? Would it be living my children down? Am I letting my readers that like, who am I letting down? And I couldn't come up with a really good answer that I was actually letting anyone down.
Candice
That's the brain there, Kimberly. Trying to convince you to stay safe.
Kimberly Wyman
Yes, yes. You're absolutely right about that. So then once I realized, okay, I'm not letting anyone down. And do I self identify as a global citizen? Yes. Do I hope my children do? Yes. Do we incorporate lots of cultural multicultural things, both birth cultures and just other fascinating cultures in the world? In our home? Yes. Like, none of that's changing. But do I have to think that I have to write the curriculum for that or talk about the pillars of being a global citizen and go into like all the depths? No.
Candice
No. And global citizens can write cozy mysteries.
Kimberly Wyman
Absolutely well, and I have to say Mica Valentine, who is the main character—and I'm anticipating a series of books with her—she's the ultimate global citizen. I don't have to use the words. I really don't. Her mannerisms, her thought process, her values, her characteristics. She's the ultimate global citizen. So if someone wants to dig in there and read more into it, there will be more, they’ll find it.
Candice
Exactly. So awesome. I'm so looking forward to that one. I have a grandchild to buy books for so I'm still buying children's books. And one more on the way, so I'll be buying plenty of children's books.
Kimberly Wyman
Yeah. Congratulations. That's amazing.
Candice
Before I let you go, can you give our listeners and a lot of them are interested in children's books? Just one piece of advice. If they haven't gotten started? They have an idea, but they haven't typed the first words yet. What advice would you give them?
Kimberly Wyman
Okay, so a few things are immediately jumping out. Well, for people who want to independently publish, just because anyone can independently publish. I don't think everyone should without a plan and thoughtfulness. And I say that because there truly is just a lot of stuff out there that just could be better, could be a lot better. And so just because you do it, and it's this fine line, right? Because I'm also saying don't sit on something, you still have to move forward and get it done. But there still has to be a bar of excellence that you can set—that the writer can set. So set your own bar of excellence. You know, maybe it's higher than mine, maybe it's lower than mine. Maybe it's right at mine. And move forward with that and don't settle for less than that bar of excellence. But also don't compare yourself to up here if you've never done it before, and you're like, “Oh, but I want to be the next Judy Blume.” I mean, that's awesome. So it's a balance right? Like I feel like I'm contradicting myself. I think yeah, I think people who are listening or watching are going to get it. I think that they're going to understand what I'm saying. So set your bar of excellence and achieve that. So don't just put stuff out there. And ultimately, I'm a huge, huge believer that books should have messages. They don't have to scream in your face. You don't have to say them out loud. You don't have to put them in the words or even in the illustrations. But ultimately, what is that takeaway? I think that if the reader is left feeling empty at the end, you didn't do your job yet. And so, think about what is that? What does that mean for you? And that sounds vague, and it is vague because it is personal. So what ultimately do you want to achieve with that book, and again, make sure that fits into your bar of excellence, and you achieve that.
Candice
We are on the same page, my friend. You're preaching my song. I think we're on the same page. So I know people are gonna want to follow up with you, they're gonna want to keep track of you and what's coming out and find your books. Where can people find you?
Kimberly Wyman
So my website is just kimberlywyman.com, I'm sure you'll have that typed up for them. Pretty simple. And on Instagram is where I'm most active. On any of the platforms,
Candice
I hear quotation marks there, what's going on?
Kimberly Wyman
I'm active. I have a love-hate relationship with social media. You know, I think that if you can authentically show up, which I really try to be an authentic person, that you should do it. But at the same time, I feel pressure to show up. Does that make sense?
Candice
100%. Everyone gets that.
Kimberly Wyman
Yes, I think so too. I think so too. So you know, I'm basically active on Instagram, and it's X. Oh, Kimberly Wyman, is my Instagram handle.
Candice
And you had a kid's activity pack that you give out as well, where can they find that?
Kimberly Wyman
Oh, yes, yes, yes. Um, love notes and tags, okay. And so they can print this off, there's a ton kids can make their own envelopes tag, notecards . . .
Candice
If you’re watching on YouTube, Kimberly has an example in front of us. And it's gorgeous.
Kimberly Wyman
Those are my children. You can see that a number of years ago, and so that would be kimberlywyman.com/lovenotes. I'll put them as a free download.
Candice
I'll put it all in the show notes. You can find the activity pack, you can find it easily. I'll put it all in there. Kimberly, this has been so great.
Kimberly Wyman
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I just love talking with other writers and especially brilliant minds such as yourself.
Candice
It’s been such a pleasure. I'm sure we'll have you again when that new book comes out.
Kimberly Wyman
I am so excited. Thanks, Candice.
Candice
Thank you so much. That's all for this week's episode, my friends. Thanks for listening to Nothing but the Words. I'm your book coach Candice L Davis, and I'll see you next time.