Candice
Nothing but the Words episode number 22. "Writing and Publishing Children's Books"
Voiceover
Welcome to Nothing but the Words—the podcast that gives you everything you need to know to write a phenomenal book. Now here's your host, your author coach, Candice L. Davis.
Candice
Hey there and welcome to Nothing but the Words I'm your author coach Candice L. Davis and today, in a special episode, I'm actually having my first podcast guest interview. I'm going to be interviewing throughout the following episodes, a few of my clients. But I decided today to start with a client who has written children's books. That's not an area in which I have a lot of experience so I figured it would be better for you to hear from someone who is creating success for her business through children's books. So today we have the author of The Mindfulness Room, Amanda Lynch. Amanda is an education consultant specializing in self-care, mindfulness-based, trauma-informed practices, and restorative justice. She's a licensed teacher and has worked in public education for nearly 20 years. Currently, Amanda provides professional development workshops throughout the country for educators, students, and their families on the impact of adverse childhood experiences on student and family engagement, and on learner cognition. So sounds like a nerd, right? She is. She's also my baby sister. Amanda loves introducing communities of color to mindfulness practices, meditation, yoga, and sound healing therapy. She's also the founder of Rethinking Resiliency, LLC. Hey, Amanda.
Amanda
Hey, Candice, how are you?
Candice
I'm good. And as I told you, I need you to project. Just because you're the baby sister doesn't mean you get to have the baby voice.
Amanda
I'm trying not to use my meditation voice for this interview.
Candice
Yeah, this is not a meditation session, we need you to dig down deep and project. So tell us about The Mindfulness Room, your first children's book. I have a copy right here. Why did you write that? And what's it about?
Amanda
So The Mindfulness Room is about a young girl named My’Angel who experiences the loss of her father. And as a result, her mom and family just become engulfed in depression. And so one day at school, her teacher introduces her to a mindfulness teacher. And she starts the process of meditating, doing yoga, really just doing some self care with her little sister at school and with the teacher, it evolved into her mom also doing the strategies at home with her and her mom. Also working with the teacher who improve and build upon the resilience of their family.
Candice
So what made you want to write a book about a child who suffers the loss of a parent?
Amanda
Well, I worked as a public school teacher, and in public education for almost 20 years, and many of my students and their families have been impacted by domestic and/or community violence. And so My’Angel is really just the embodiment of a lot of my students. It's almost like a love letter to my time in the classroom. And so in helping my students work through a variety of losses and traumas, we would frequently do meditation or various mindfulness activities in the classroom. And I just thought that more people in our community, especially, would benefit from learning some of these practices.
Candice
So can they learn the practices directly from The Mindfulness Room?
Amanda
Absolutely. So on the back of the book, initially, the book started off as a guide for teachers on how to teach their students to be more mindful. But I thought that it would be very powerful to include a Strategies Guide in it. So there's an ABC section at the end, there are 26 strategies listed in the back with different breathing techniques, some yoga, things that you could do at home with yourself and with your family. And so it's really, you know, something that if you don't have a mindful practice could pick right up to start to develop one.
Candice
Oh, that's fantastic. So why did you name the main character My’Angel? It's a very unusual name, most of us would not be familiar with it. Why did you pick that name? I'm asking questions I know the answer to.
Amanda
*laughs* So there were two main reasons my best friend her for her name was Angel Jackson. And then she was killed 14 years ago. And so My’Angel absolutely derived her name from Angel's name, but I've also had just many students with that name. I've always thought it was very unique and I thought it just fit the character as I worked through developing her characteristics and her personality with my editor.
Candice
Who was your editor?
Amanda
Oh, the lovely. Candice L. Davis. Also known as my sister.
Candice
OK we're ridiculous. So, okay, so My’Angel is sort of representative of some of your students. But did you draw inspiration for her from anyone else?
Amanda
Oh, absolutely. I also have four children. I have a three year old daughter, six year old daughter, and 14 year old daughter, who have very big, larger than life personalities. And so sometimes we have to use these strategies at home to reign our energy in. And so we don't flip our lid, because we talked about that in the book as well. It's a little bit of brain science in there as well. And these are things that I do with my own girls. And so if you look at my girls is very funny that the illustrator, when she sent samples to me, of what her vision was, had never seen my daughters. And the main character and her sister look just like my six and three year old. So absolutely, they also were modeled after the girls.
Candice
That's really cool. So you mentioned your Illustrator, and I want to talk a little bit about how you worked with her. But before we do, I also want to mention that you wrote your second book, Breathe, Baby, Breathe as a board book. It's appropriate for younger children, who maybe aren't ready for regular paper books yet, What made you decide to do that?
Amanda
I have a three year old who doesn't always understand that books are our friends. *both laugh* And so sometimes Rosebud will turn books into her own coloring book, or I will find pages of books where they should not be. And so I wanted to have a book where I could hand it directly to Rosie. And she could interact with that with or without me or with her sisters, or brother. And so that was one of the reasons why I wanted to do a board book. But I also- the strategies are the same in that book as well. I wanted to have something for younger kids who may not have the attention span, or self-regulation skills to stick through a story, like The Mindfulness Room, or for parents who really aren't ready to introduce a trauma from a character's perspective to their kids. The Mindfulness Room, you know, can be a little heavy. And so I wanted to have something that was still a fun read, but, you know, geared for a younger audience as well.
Candice
So what made you decide to go the self-publishing route as opposed to waiting to go through the process with a traditional publisher?
Amanda
Well, I don't know that I have done a lot of research about what- like some of the groups that I'm been online, I see where authors have submitted, you know, 100, portfolio letters, examples of a book to traditional publishers, I never did that. I have a friend who owns a publishing company. And so as I was working on my draft, I sent that to her and asked what her thoughts were, and her initial response was, this is amazing, you should publish it yourself. And so she knew—and, you know, various friends that had, you know, looked at the book, to give me feedback—really, were instrumental in helping me to walk through the self-publishing process. So I think there probably pros and cons to both. I think the only drawback I would find with self-publishing would be marketing, because it's another business. And so if you have a full-time job, you're gonna put in as much work with self-publishing as you do with your day job. And so just having that in mind, books don't sell if no one knows about them. So making sure that you are really hitting the pavement, exploring social media, networking with other authors, making those kinds of connections, has really helped me in terms of marketing. But that would be, I guess, why I went the self-publishing route versus traditional.
Candice
So, and I will just say this as someone who's gone with my clients to do the traditional publishing route, many times, you still are 100% responsible for marketing your books. So a lot of people think that if they go the traditional route, the publishers are going to do it. And they're not. Unless you're already a best-selling author in which case they know they can make a lot of money on you. With you, I should say, sorry, publishers. But otherwise, they're not going to invest money in marketing your book. They expect you to do that. So when you write a book, just be prepared to market it, period. It's kind of where we are on that. So I think it's kind of important, like, if anyone is watching videos, as opposed to listening to the audio and you can find the video on YouTube are also on my website at CandceLDavis.com/22, I believe it's episode number 22, that you see the artwork. Because I've seen many children's books that were self-published, and unfortunately, some of the value of the book was lost because there wasn't the quality of the artwork to go with the quality of the content. The author did a great job, but the quality of the art just didn't live up to it. And your artwork is really professional. I mean, it could stand next to any book in Barnes and Noble or your favorite independent bookstore. So tell us how you found your artists and what it was like working with her. What's her name again?
Amanda
I'm Bonnie Lemaire. And Bonnie is based out of Ontario, Canada. I went on Upwork and put up a proposal, I had several artists submit samples of what they thought My’Angel might look like. I gave them a very general description of what I was looking for. And so that allowed me very quickly to narrow down who I thought would work best with me. And it ended up being Bonnie. It developed into a beautiful relationship, we're actually completing two more books. But I also was very cognizant of the fact that I could have gone with a cheaper illustrator, maybe not have gotten the quality that I was looking for. Just hurry along and get my book done. And even though I started writing my book in May, and it was out over the summer it was out in July, Barney worked very quickly, she had a very easy understanding of what my timeline looked like. She's won a multitude of awards. She's gone to graduate school, for artistic design, she's an author herself. And so I also wanted to make sure that her background was really in line with mine. And I believe in paying people for their work. And so she was amazing. And what going with someone who may have more experience doing this. And so her price, maybe a little bit more than what some people initially would like to pay. It is allowed me to be in independent bookstores all over the country, Barnes and Noble, Walmart, Amazon-
Candice
Target!
Amanda
Books a Million, Target. If there's an online retailer selling books, my book is there. I'm the only self-published author that has, right now, been nominated for an award from the Library of Virginia. And I've had many librarians say to me, when you pick my book up, they don't believe that self-published. And so that was really important to me, not that there was anything wrong with being self-published. But I think that for especially big box, bricks and mortar stores, they have a certain look, that is appealing to them. And they're very hesitant to purchase books that aren't in line with that. It's also been very well-received by schools. I've done book talks and various things at different festivals. And it's just allowed my book, I think, to grow wings in spaces that it may not have, because I put in that initial investment. And I've been able to recoup that very quickly.
Candice
Yeah, I totally agree. And I remember when you were going through the process of testing out different illustrators and having them create samples, and we learned something at that point that we did not know about getting samples, do you know what I'm talking about? *both laugh* What did Upwork say?
Amanda
Make sure that you pay people for their samples, even if it's $5. So on Upwork, you are not allowed to ask people to send you any work at all without offering some type of compensation. So if you are going to request samples from five authors just offer them, you know, $10 for a quick sketch. I wasn't looking for them to do like a full, you know, in color, full spread. I just wanted a sketch of what my vision was. And I wanted something that didn't look like computer animated, but had more of a hand-drawn look to it. And so that was something that I learned early on. So just make sure when you are asking for a sample, that you're also compensating illustrators for that as well.
Candice
And with your work with Bonnie, so she created these illustrations, how did you compensate her? Did you pay her upfront? What is the relationship like when it comes to the money?
Amanda
So for my relationship with Bonnie once I paid her standard fee, I'm not even sure that she and I, we had a contract through Upwork but we now work off of Upwork because we've developed a relationship. I don't think we even have a contract which is probably something we should have so maybe don't do that. *laughs* But she and I probably don't have a contract. But I will just email her and say this is what I'm looking for. And a few days later she'll you know or normally the same day will say this is what my price looks like. And, you know typically we can go from there. Sorry, my computer's cutting out. So with her it's been pretty standard. She has a set price for double spreads and the single spread and really, has just given me the allowance to say this is what I want. And how I'd like for it to look. But, you know, just make sure that you're compensating people well for their work, I own all the rights. So all the images belong to me, I paid her upfront. So anything that I want to use for playing cards, I've used images for a journal, I just let her know that this is where it's going, I'm gonna give you credit. And, you know, it's been pretty- we have a pretty flexible relationship. But just make sure that is understood between you and your Illustrator, because I do know that some illustrators work for royalties, and that just sounded a little complicated to me. So she and I didn't go that route.
Candice
Yeah, having done a royalty relationship, it is incredibly complicated. And if you can avoid it, I say avoid it. So I'm going to switch lanes a little bit from the business of writing to ask you about your purpose. What do you consider your purpose to be and how has writing children's books allowed you to walk in your purpose?
Amanda
I feel like my purpose is to serve communities that are often marginalized. Some people may refer to them as underserved, but those communities that you might not see in the margins. And so I work with adults and children to help them grow in their resilience, and also to help them to develop or fine tune a mindfulness practice. And so I really feel like that is my purpose. But in order for me to fulfill that I have to have my own mindfulness practice. So a lot of people will say, "Well, how do you do all of the things?" You know, I'm like, well I couldn't do all of the things, one, if I didn't have a faith base, if I didn't have yoga, and meditation, I also have a lot of family support. You all are watching and listening to my number one cheerleader. So I have a lot of people that just hold space, for me and with me as well. And so just making sure I have, you know, all of the things that I need to be balanced and healthy in order to pour into other people to increase their own aptitudes.
Candice
Right. So right around the time that you released The Mindfulness Room, you also launched your Education Consultancy. And how have the books helped you to launch and grow your business?
Amanda
So I was working in the public school system, and I just started to really feel like the job that I had—which was to observe and examine student behavior, to write behavior plans, and make suggestions to teachers about how to curtail student behavior—really wasn't getting to the root cause of the behavior. It also was not really helping teachers to develop their own cultural competency. And so I decided to just branch out on my own to be able to offer these workshops throughout the United States, on Zoom, and also in person. And so being able to have a book also increased my expertise, because I have done a lot of inner work and self education. Working with Dr. Anda, who is one of the CO principal founders of the Adverse Childhood Study, just various, like names that you would know if you work in education. It also allowed me to get a lot of book reviews from these people. And so being able to say, Okay, I have a book review from Dr. KDC Filman, or I have a book review from, you know, the principal of this school. Opens certain doors for me and allow me to sell my book in mass quantity to school division and to staff. And so I think it's just really has enhanced what I was already doing, but just made me maybe more of an expert or better expert walking in the door.
Candice
So what piece of advice would you give to someone—who does have a business, whether it's in education or a similar field, and they think that writing a children's book might be a good asset to add to their platform, and also help them to reach a new audience—but they have no idea where to start with a children's book. What piece of advice would you give them?
Amanda
I would say to brainstorm who is your audience? So who are you writing to? Who are you writing for? So are you writing a children's book for kids, one for parents to share with their kids? One that can be used in the classroom, like what is your area of focus? And so maybe to brainstorm that with your circle of trust. Then once you sort of formulate it, who your audience is what your topic is, to just start writing and go from there. Buy children's books, go to the library, see what books look like. I've learned a lot after releasing my first book that I probably should have known before. And I think that Candice was probably telling me to do something, I was saying, I don't have time to go and count pages of these children's books. But, you know, they're like, a certain page number for different age groups. And so like, researching those kinds of things. And so doing that back end work. Also really examining your finances and determining what you can afford. I took on a special project at work last year, and all the money from that project went to publishing my book. So it didn't take away from, you know, my normal income. And so, really being able to examine like, what you can afford to do, and maybe, wait, if you can't get that author, I'm sorry, that illustrator that you really want to work with. So maybe you can wait three or four months.
Candice
Yeah.
Amanda
And so, you know, just sort of doing like that back end research. Joining different groups on social media that are geared towards children's authors. There are many, many groups that I belong to that are geared towards indie authors, authors who write books for children of color, so really networking in those circles as well, because that's a whole nother support system. I've also been able to, like, sell my books through partnering with other people and selling them as packages. And so, you know, those are some things that I would say, off the top of my head.
Candice
So one of the things you were really hard headed about when we were at the beginning process of development.
Amanda
One of the things?!
Candice
Yeah, one of. The only one I'm gonna share today, I'm not going to share all of them.
Amanda
*laughs*
Candice
One of the things you were really hard headed about was I said, we have to know from the beginning, what My’Angel wants, and we have to see her work for it and get it. And you were like, what does she want? I mean you were not the easiest client.
Amanda
I was the easiest client :)
Candice
You were not the easiest client. But at any rate, once you locked down what My’Angel wanted, it seemed like the rest of the story really fell into place, and solidified really quickly. And so we got a sense from what she wanted. At the beginning of the book, she really wanted to see her mother smile again. Because since her father had passed away, she hadn't seen her mother smile again. And so we see her use the mindfulness tools that her teacher is giving her to help her mother get to the place where she can smile again. And at the same time, My’Angel is being transformed, and her grief is being transformed. So having that goal for your character, in my very humble opinion, it really solidified the story, it made that story come alive and it made it so any child can connect to it. Because at the end of the day, if the character gets what they want, it's a happy ending. And children are looking for happy endings.
Amanda
I agree, but I don't think I was that difficult to work with.
Candice
Oh you're the worst.
Amanda
Shall we disagree? *both laugh*
Candice
You weren't the worst, but you were, like, not easy. I'm just going to put it out there. So where can people find The Mindfulness Room and Breathe, Baby Breathe if they want to order it right now?
Amanda
You can find The Mindfulness Room and Breathe, Baby Breathe simply by doing a Google search it'll bring up everywhere that it's located. Amazon, let's see, Target, Walmart, Books a Million. If you prefer to go to indie bookstores, you can go that route too because they have access to every internet in the country. And so yeah, they're widely available. Super excited.
Candice
Awesome. And if people want to find out more about you, where can they find you?
Amanda
You can go to rethinkingresiliency.com and all of my contact information is listed there.
Candice
Awesome! Amanda, thank you for joining us on Nothing but the Words. You're the first guest!
Amanda
Thank you Candice!
Candice
Thank you. Thanks for listening to Nothing but the Words. I'm your author coach Candice L. Davis, and I'll see you next time.